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The Whole ORU Lawsuit Thing
By Tyson Wynn | October 2, 2007 | Print This Post
[UPDATE 10/5/2007, Noonish]
The Chronicle of Higher Education has reported the news of the ORU lawsuit.
Michael Bates linked to this post and quoted a bit from it (Thanks, Michael!), and he did a little digging via a 2004 ORU tax filing (Form 990) which the Tulsa World posted. He notes:
The list of ORU’s regents, found in their 2005 IRS Form 990 filing (starting on page 18 of the PDF; kudos to the World for posting it), is a who’s who of Word-Faith televangelists: Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Jerry Savelle, Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Marilyn Hickey, Jesse Duplantis.
I had no idea they were regents when I made my original post (below), but I am not surprised at all. Money is central to their “ministries” and it wouldn’t shock me at all to learn that each of their respective (don’t mistake that for respectable) organizations operate in much the same way as ORU seems to run. It seems that it is typical for only the big cheese (and his or her closest friends and associates) to benefit from all those seed faith offerings people send in.
[Original Post Below]
Via Batesline, I learned of the lawsuit against Richard Roberts and Oral Roberts University in Tulsa (see the court document here). The only reason I mention it here is to illustrate one of the reasons that I and many other, better, opponents to the prosperity gospel are so opposed to it.
In the first place, it’s patently unbiblical and contrary to the teachings of Christ. That’s all the reason we need to reject it. However, there are practical implications, and I would like to discuss a few of them.
When a large “ministry” like ORU (or whatever) is characterized not only by excesses on behalf of the top dog but also flagrant and contemptible disregard for the law, ethics, Christian responsibility, and any semblance of fair play, it makes it harder for all ministries–especially small ones.
In the aftermath of the Enron meltdown, Congress responded to the outcry for reform with the Sarbanes-Oxley Act (aka Public Company Accounting Reform and Investor Protection Act of 2002). Sarbox, as it is also known, regulates the accounting practices of public companies. What many people do not know is that in addition to its application to large publicly traded corporations Sarbox applies to non-profit organizations of all sizes, right down to the corner church. And I am not saying that application to the corner church is bad. What I am saying is that, by and large, the corner church has properly accounted for its finances without regulation. But, because the big boys made a mess of things, now everyone must pay the price of more regulation, more work, weirder regulations, and higher costs of compliance.
In much the same way that bad corporate citizens cost us all eventually, bad ministries cost all ministries eventually. No pastor I know would dare use God’s coffers as his own personal piggy bank. But now, if what has been alleged from information contained in one of ORU’s own internal documents (reproduced in part in the lawsuit against ORU and Roberts) is true, it appears that Oral Roberts Ministries and ORU have had an open-checkbook approach to the entire Roberts family (see pages 7-10 of the PDF). All that seed faith money has sprouted up in the Roberts’ family garden. And the misery of it all is that because this has happened (if the allegations are true) to the big boys, there will be a regulatory response, placing more burden and regulation on all non-profits, from national and statewide ministries to the local church.
I currently serve on the Board of Directors for the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma. I have never seen a better run, more financially accountable and transparent organization. At our recent meeting, we learned that the BGCO has received an “unqualified good” rating from our external auditors again for 2006. If memory serves, the BGCO has had “unqualified good” ratings since the 1920s. Not only that, but all of our affiliates do, too. Many are aware of the scandals surrounding the Baptist foundations in other states. Not so in Oklahoma. Under the leadership of many wise directors, currently Robert Kellogg, the foundation is stronger than ever, and totally open and transparent. But, in all likelihood, the future will hold even greater regulation and compliance costs (money that could be spent on missions work) to prove we have been doing it right all along. Sad.
I only mention Baptists because I am one and have specific knowledge about our cooperative groups. I am confident that many other ministries are doing the right thing because it is the right thing. And that’s what is really unfortunate about it all. If we have come to a time when a ministry does the right thing because of mountains of regulation and enforcement, rather than just because it’s the right thing, we are in a sad state. We Christians, of all people, should know that there doesn’t have to be a law for everything.
I hope the allegations are not true (though I still take issue with many of the teachings of ORU and Richard Roberts), but I suspect they are because, as I mentioned earlier, the lawsuit claims to reproduce them from a confidential ORU internal document. It also claims to have presented a sanitized version so as to leave the university some credibility. If what I read was the sanitized version, I hate to think what was in the unedited document.
And while we’re discussing things, maybe we should deal with a couple other things. You may be thinking, But Tyson, you’re a pastor and you’re pretty politically involved. You would be correct. But, and the “but” is what really matters, I do it on my own time, with my own resources, in my own forum. I may preach about issues that are important to Christians, but I do not endorse political candidates in my role as pastor. One of the main reasons I blog is so that I have a non-church outlet for my interests. And, I strongly believe that government cannot save us, which gets into many of my political philosophies regarding government (mainly to get it out of people’s lives as much as possible). I guess what I am saying is that a man does not give up his right to free speech when he accepts a pulpit anymore than a student does when he or she crosses the threshold of a public school. I just have to know when and where I can practice my free speech. And to be honest, I have better things to talk about at church.
In regards to the ORU lawsuit, we can only hope that it will purify the university and the Robertses without creating a huge burden on all other non-profits as a result. Remember, Richard, it’s all God’s money. When a “ministry” becomes more about money than missions, you have a mess that embarrasses all Christians, because much of the population doesn’t distinguish between the prosperity gospelizers and those of us trying to preach the historical Christian faith. Sad.
***
Just as a footnote: Having worked in higher education, I can state that though woefully excessive in Roberts’ case, university administration (especially presidents) are afforded great discretion and great potential for corruption in all institutions, private or public. What is needed are strong, independent Regents that are more committed to educational excellence, public accountability, and financial transparency than to the man or woman at the helm. Regent literally means a “ruler” or “one who rules.” The more you deal with higher education, the less you see Regents as rulers and more as lobbyists and rubber stamps.
Topics: Politics, Religious Matters |
October 4th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Wynn,
As an ORU alum, this situation presents some emotional conflict. Of course I want justice and purity, but I also hate to see one more rock thrown at the Church. However, it is true, until we hold our leaders to a higher level of accountability, it will continue to happen. It will truly be unfortunate if this creates higher levels of regulation from the government. If it does, we only have ourselves to blame.
Ministers are people, not demi-gods, and anytime a leader reaches the point where no one can question what he does, because he is the only one that hears from God, we are in trouble.
If we had applied Biblical standards to prophecies while I was there, the Roberts family would have been removed a long time ago, for simply being false prophets. They would say that God told them something would happen, and then it would not. That’s a simple test, and it should have been a clear, clear warning sign to anyone associated with the university.
I was a student from 98-04 (two degrees, I’m not slow) and we could constantly sense the degradation of accountability. When I would express my frustrations, I would be told that I simply had a problem with authority. Which is true to some extent, I have a problem with any authority that abuses its power. Which is what has been going on for years and years at ORU.
I look forward to the outcome of this entire situation, and I anticipate the complete removal of the Roberts family from the university, which is the only way the university will ever survive.
It is a sad, sad situation, but long overdue. I am excited to see what the Lord does with the school after He is finished pruning.
Wynn, please feel free to e-mail me with any questions you may have.
October 4th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
If these things are true about the Roberts family,I hope they will be removed from the university.
These allegations will make some people never want to attend church and that is really a shame.
October 5th, 2007 at 10:52 am
I also have two degrees from ORU, and I didn’t see the problem that you refer to. Why not let it play out in the courts before passing judgment? And why not publish the names of people who write here?
Thank you,
Lyn Walton
October 5th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
I can only say this; God will judge His church first and then the Gentiles. We are so close to the end and the return of Jesus. We have only seen the beginning of Gods’ judgment on His church; and it’s going to get ugly. But He wants a church without spot or blemish. Right now the church has a lot of this in and on them. We will see the results soon, and God will be the victor through this.
October 5th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Lyn,
Thanks for your comment, and you are certainly welcome to your opinion (which is opposed to the other commenters here).
As for you questions:
1. Why not let it play out in the courts before passing judgment?
If you will notice, I have (for my part) been careful to note that these are allegations which I hope are not true, though I find that unlikely since the lawsuit quotes from an internal ORU documents compiled by Richard Roberts’ sister-in-law.
That said, I am and remain opposed to the Word of Faith movement. These issues at ORU are symptomatic of a doctrine that is so terribly afield of the true Gospel.
2. Why not publish the names of the people who write here?
I do. I am Tyson Wynn, and I am the only one who posts here. It’s no secret.
Commenters leave the information they choose to leave. So long as their comments are civil, germane, and clean, they get approved.
Why is this the policy? Because I own the blog and I say so.
October 5th, 2007 at 11:40 pm
Thanks so much for the website and the wealth (no pun intended) of information.
When prosperity ministries live lives of Hollywood style luxury & excess on the donations of little old ladies on Social Security, I cannot imagine that it is what Jesus would do. And isn’t that what being His disciple is all about? Jesus came not to be served, but to serve. Our leaders’ patterns should be those of servants. Ezekiel 34 has a lot to say about shepherds who feed themselves instead of their flock.
October 6th, 2007 at 5:23 am
What is the deal with Lindsey and all of the text messages to young males? Why is nobody commenting on this? Is this common knowledge at the school or is it so taboo that it is not being brought up?
October 6th, 2007 at 9:05 am
Boxer,
That’s certainly an issue that will come out. I have reserved comment on this issue because there are other ways for this to have happened. For example, and I am not certain of all the Robertses’ kids’ ages, but it is altogether possible that one of the daughters was texting a friend or schoolmate in her own age bracket from Lindsay’s phone rather than Lindsay texting them herself. From the number of phones the documents allege Lindsay purchased there’s no telling who had what phone when. Of course, it could also be that Lindsay was doing it. Until more info is forthcoming, I think it wise to extend the benefit of a doubt especially concerning moral issues of this magnitude (as if the other moral issues weren’t big enough!).
Tyson
October 6th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
WWJD? He’d puke
October 6th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
I agree that I hope that this can be resolved where there will be little burden placed upon non-profits. I do hope that all truth comes out on both sides and that there will be accountability.
One of the daughters is still in high school to my knowledge.
Tyson, While I can understand many issues with many current “Word of Faith”, one must remember that the current, most public movement of Word of Faith is not like the original intent. Also, some of the original WoF ministries are very active in helping their communities and spreading the gospel and aren’t about money money. So do be careful when passing thoughts over that issue. It’s like moveon.org, they are the most vocal, but yet one of the smallest parts of the democratic party.
October 7th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
I sort of wish you left the first paragraph out and published the rest because it would have focused on the issue at hand. The side issue is WoF. There are many different prosperity teachings. To declare all unbiblical wouldn’t be correct. God has a place for wealthy christians because they help fund the gospel.
Now with that said I like your analysis in how this could effect non-profits. I don’t think this issue is on the scale of EXON. But I do think it is a big enough issue to turn a lot of heads. If government regulations increase they will increase but it will be harder, not impossible, to run a clean ministry. But what it does do is limit small churches of every denomination. Many of those churches do not have the funding for the serious accounting nessecary to run a non-for-profit.
I’ll end with this. Bless those that curse you. If you feel that WoF, ORU, etc is a burden bless them like Christ commnads us because if we codemn them with our words or type then God will codemn us.
October 8th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Darklogos,
Thanks for commenting, though I do have to take issue with some of your statements.
Word of Faith’s errant teachings are at the core of this issue. People who adulterate the Scriptures to teach what the typical Word of Faithers do about wealth (”God wants you rich, R-I-C-H, rich!” according to Kenneth Copeland when I was flipping past him one day) and health (if your faith is just strong enough you will be healed–then explain to me how Kenneth Hagin died–or how about you preach a funeral for a man who was taught that if his faith was just strong enough he would be healed of the devastating effects of cancer. When he wasn’t healed as taught, he took his own life) will have no qualms adulterating tax codes, rules of ethics, and various other standards.
I have nowhere said that God doesn’t have a place for wealthy Christians. I, too, believe their time, talent, and treasure should be invested for God like everyone else’s; however, the Word of Faith teachers teach false doctrine and many of them, in the case of the Oneness Pentecostals, believe and teach heresy.
My overall point is that because they have not been faithful in the large things, it will now be much more difficult for the myriad small ministries to prove we have been faithful in the small things. And that’s what it means. Though we are faithful, and as a pastor I am totally hands-off of money, we and many others will have to bear the burden of greater levels of accountability that most Christians don’t need to make them play fair.
As for your last paragraph, you have to be kidding. Your statements are akin to those who quote “judge not lest you be judged.” In context, that text clearly means that we are to judge ourselves by God’s standards first then apply His Word to others.
If someone has violated God’s rules, I do not condemn him. He stands condemned already. That’s Scripture. As a pastor, I would be very ineffective if I did not use God’s law to show people of their standing before a holy God. Only when a person sees his or her just standing before God (spiritually bankrupt) can they recognize and accept their need for a Savior.
I recommend that if you feel that they deserve your blessing so much, bless them with a contribution. As for me, when it becomes obvious that a “ministry” has thought so little of God’s standards and the contributions of God’s people, I will not bless them in word (or type, as you say).
Seriously, when it is obvious that a ministry is in such error, as with the teachings of most prevalent Word of Faith teachers, are Christians supposed to keep quiet and just bless them? Check out the rebukes Paul gave in the Bible to those who would preach a false gospel.
It is a mis-interpretation of Scripture to give someone a pass just because they name the name of Christ. If anything, it should make them own up to their mis-deeds, repent, attempt to make it right, and implement standards to prevent such abuses in the future.
October 8th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
I am sorry that this happened, but I remember the coin in the fishes mouth. give what belong to the goverment what belongs to the government. well a small village in india had 18 children die this year of starvation, what a shame that my few dollars from ss went for junk instead of saving lives, for this reason I hope the 501 church or other users are under tighter rules. I do not think any child should die of starvation. that god way, and the great judge will make the final decision on this case, not the local law makers. I hope the board will be totally loyal to god and not roberts, thankyou, sam
October 8th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Sam,
That’s my point. Every dollar that a church or ministry must spend on compliance is a dollar that doesn’t go to the mission field or other ministry endeavor.
October 8th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Tyson,
You host a good blog and I think you’re on target. I think you hit the nail on the head when you point to the responsibility of the board of regents. As you imply, such boards often do not hold people in power accountable to high standards.
Whether or not ORU succeeds in defending itself may or may not have ramifications for other nonprofits. No matter what the outcome, ORU needs to deal with issues of integrity and character in its leadership: two areas in which ORU has rarely excelled.
I find it interesting that in all the blogs I’ve read, there’s hardly a word defending any high integrity and character of the school’s leadership, even from those of us who love the school. And have you noticed that even those who chastise any and all who criticise “God’s anointed” do not defend him/them by pointing to character or integrity?
The regents have a vital, absolutely crucial role. Please understand: I love ORU and received two degrees (’74 and ‘89) from there, and I see this as one more chance for ORU’s regents to address those areas.
I understand they’ve taken a step to address accounting issues, but I can’t help wonder if it’s not just a band-aid approach. In all my years associated with the school and with its faculty, students, and staff, I’ve never been overly impressed by the role of the regents, especially when I look at the make-up of the current board.
Anyone who is in ministry, and especially those who look as if they are “successful” in it, can be expected to be tempted repeatedly by the 3 G’s: the gold, the glory, or the girls. It is imperative that such ministers have a group (board, council) that will hold them to a high standard of accountability and constantly remind us of our responsibilities as humble stewards of God’s grace. If the allegations against RR and family are true, then blame resides with the Board of Regents as much as with Richard or family.
You have mentioned your concern about how repurcussions (new government regulations in the form of a religious SOX act) would put a greater burden upon smaller nonprofit ministries.
As a pastor of a denominational church I find that our staff, our committees, and I are already spending an inordinate amount of time, energy, and money to make sure that we comply with all kinds of ministerial, sexual ethics, and financial standards. I also notice that many of my fellow pastors in smaller denominations or in independent churches have no idea of the charges they could open themselves up to because they are not jumping through all the hoops our church does. Although such pastors might be wonderful god-fearing men and women of character and integrity, they will be far more vulnerable targets than the Robertses and will not have the massive resources to defend themselves in court against greedy legal predators. What I’m saying is that I think we’ll have new government regulations put upon us regardless of what might happen with ORU.
I guess that won’t put me in any part of the Word of Faith camp, will it?
I hope that all of us who seek to serve God will use this ORU lawsuit to examine our own integrity and character. As I read the suit, I found myself asking questions about how faithfully am I using the time and resources that God and others have entrusted me with.
October 9th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Thank you for your response. I will keep this as a polite as possible.
The basics of the gospel is Christ dying for our sins and rectifying us back to the Father. Add in some trinitarian goodness, a dash or soaking of baptism, Jesus both God and man,love God and your neighboor, and the Holy Spirit walking with us and you have the foundation of the Christian faith in a nut shell. I’m being brief because laying out all the details is not nessecary betweens ministers of the gospel.
Everything else added on from there is icing on the cake. It is only heresy if it detracts from the statements above.
WoF conflicts with baptist theology because it is based on sensationalism. You can rationlize senationalism but you can’t find a book in the bible that says that the gifts of the spirit would last for a short season then go away when we christians get smart enough. At the same time I agree the word does not say that everyone that belives shall be rich. But prosperity isn’t all about money. I’ve had little to no money and have been prosperious because God took care of all my needs according to his riches and glory by Christ Jesus. Again the thelogical disagreement is minor and uneededly over shadows your great point on accountablity in my opinion.
As for the codemn statment i made ealier here is the thing. I didn’t use the judge portion of that scriputre because you are right we can judge but we will in turn be judged by the same standard. There is nothing wrong with that as long as the standard is the word of God. But the codmenation is the final long last verdict. If we condem others it means there is no salvation for a person. That is then saying that Jesus who is our salvation can’t save them. I bless them not in money because that would be their stumbling block. I would bless them in prayer and suplication to God being diligent in that.
Sorry for the misspelled words. Running late to work. Good points all in all. Look forward to your response.
October 9th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Darklogos,
It seem to me that you are confusing the terms “Charismatic” and “Word of Faith.”
Though I am not charismatic, I have not said and I do not believe that charismatics are necessarily errant or heretical. Word of Faith, however, has proven itself to be heretical and cultic in that it denies, corrupts, compromises, and/or condemns elements of essential Christian doctrine.
I think you were alluding to the essentials of the Gospel in your second paragraph, though you did not state them as as I would have.
I don’t really need a lesson in how Word of Faith (or charismatic) theology differs from typical Baptist doctrine. Believe it or not, though, I can tell you that there are continualist and cessationist Baptists, so it’s not so easy as to say how Baptists differ from your particular brand of theology.
I can respect and cooperate with any and all Christians who hold to the essential elements of doctrine. However, I cannot sit idly by and let fakes and charlatans use the name of my Savior as a means of feathering their nests and robbing the joy of people’s salvation for something so worthless as money.
In sum, not every charismatic is a Word of Faither. Those who are not, and who hold to the essentials of the faith, are not heretical or cultic, though I may or may not agree with certain aspects of their “religion.”
The real problem with any who claim to profess Christ is their being dogmatic about things that are not essential, especially if they are being dogmatic about things that are clearly heretical.
October 10th, 2007 at 1:51 am
Thank you for your response. Your passion is noted in your text.
Many times people make WoF and Charismatic synonyms since at times there are overlaps between the two circles. It is good to have that point cleared up.
We must be careful with what we define as heretical. The only thing that every denomination, Eastern Orthodox, and Catholic churches accept as universal definition of heresy is the first 10 councils of the church and the elder creeds/proffesions of faith. There are few things past those issues that are shared between all the Christian faiths. So then we are left with different emphasis and focus on faith. Many times we make demonational policy doctrine. For example the the Southern Baptist convention meet this year or last year about missionaries being able to pray in tounges in their own personal prayer time and still be allowed on the mission field. Not only that there was some side pressure to remove certain charismatic folks from the southern baptist denomination.
Yet the word states in 1 cor 14:39-40 not to forbid tongues if they are done properly and in order. So then the it could be easily said from a critic and that the Southern Baptist are heretical because they went against the word of God.
We must be careful not to undermine nor tear down one another. Instead of Satan being the accuser of the brothern it is the fellow christian that is the accuser now day of his brother. All those that server Christ are of the same religious faith but just part of different sections of the body. If we try to seperate camps by saying they are a different religion we cutting ourselves from the greater body of Christ as a whole in our hearts. I can say to a baptist, an A.M.E, and a Catholic you are my brother because Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. Jesus links us all together.
If folks are wrong in their faith it is our job to pray for them because it is the Holy Spirit that moves the heart of humanity and not us. Our moral lines in the sand are people to know what we won’t cross but it does not mean we do not go to those who have crossed their line or have no line at all. Christ commands us to love our neigboor as ourself. Where is the “love” for Richard shown here if we profess that we believe in the same God. Or is it that we hate ourselves and so our love standard is low. I only bring this up to make people think not to point fingers our accuse anyones heart. Paul tells us in 1st Cor 13 that love is patient, kind, not easily provoked, doesn’t think about its own, is not puffed up among other things. If Jesus can say to the woman caught in adultry “Woman where are your accusers? I do not condemn you go and sin no more.” Is not the same demanded for us in this situation?
If we believe in the Soverigty, power, might, and strength of our God let us pray for this situation that God be made manifest in it. Also that the faith and ministering of the Gospel should not be hindered by this incident. We should fast, pray, repent, and humble ourselves before the Lord. Then God would intervene on all our behalf for the greater good.
In summation let us humble ourselves and pray. Let us join hands with that church across the street or down the road and pray that the church only moves forward and what Satan intends for evil be worked for good.
October 10th, 2007 at 1:56 am
Point of polite clarification. The baptist example was the best example that came to mind. I’m not a critic of the southern baptist convention.
October 10th, 2007 at 8:23 am
TBN is next! They too live high off the hog…on the backs of the poor.
October 10th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Darklogos,
We seem to be going in circles here. I have already stated that I have no problem respecting and cooperating with anyone who will hold to the elements of essential Christian doctrine. Within the pale of orthodoxy, we can debate secondary and tertiary elements vehemently. But we’re not talking about that here. We are to be unified in essentials and grant liberty in non-essentials.
Richard Roberts’ (and many of his regents’) teachings were cultic before the financial allegations were raised. I have been opposed to their prosperity gospel and counterfeit revival for a long time.
As for your example of the SBC and the tongues thing: It was the International Mission Board of the SBC that attempted to establish new policies that would prevent candidates who confessed to having a private prayer language or who had not been baptized by a Baptist church from entering the mission field. Those new policies were wrong. Wade Burleson, with whom I am a friendly acquaintance, did right to make those changes public and oppose them. I have supported him, and I agree with his position.
But you want to keep putting Richard Roberts and his ilk back into that camp of people who I agree with on essentials. They do not hold to essential Christian doctrine, and it is them who have elevated secondary and tertiary elements to essential status. These are people, for example, who refuse to believe someone is saved if he has not been slain in the spirit and spoken in tongues. Therefore, it is the Word of Faithers who have elevated tongues to essential status. Not to mention, the many other big issues, as in the many who deny the Trinity. Benny Hinn has claimed that Christ is going to physically begin appearing with him on his platform at crusades. There are not people who are preaching the Gospel as it is presented in the Scriptures. And when they will not hold to essentials, we should divide.
Lastly, and this is a genuine question not sarcasm, how do you do the work of ministry if you operate from the belief that all men are brothers so long as they say they come in the name of Christ? Scripture warns us that many false teachers will come in his name and commands us to take on false prophets. Nowhere do I see in Scripture we are to coddle and pray for them. We are to oppose them. I do not condemn any man, but I will stand on God’s Word and continue to show that these people’s teachings are already condemned by God. You quote Scripture about love and the woman caught in adultery. Jesus exhibited his love by forgiving rather than killing the woman caught in sin. But HE FORGAVE HER SIN RATHER THAN DISMISS IT. Jesus did not and does not forgive those who were not repentant, thus she must have been seeking forgiveness in her heart. She did not have the gaul to proclaim that she was sinless when she had been caught in it. If the allegations against Roberts are proved to be true, then he has now stood in a chapel service and gone on Larry King and lied rather than seeking forgiveness and reform, in effect denying his sin though caught in the midst of it. The audit will tell the tale.
If you want to continue this discussion, I would prefer you email me about it. You want to debate my beliefs regarding Word of Faith, when I have already explained them and the difference in Word fo Faith and charismatics. This comment thread has veered greatly from the content of the original post.
October 10th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
Having read the legal brief and today the transcript of the Larry King interview with the Roberts, I discerned some serious discrepancies.
The facts of the case have yet to be proven, however the allegations are matters of established fact. Roberts neglected to clarify an important distinction about the nature of the allegations to Larry King and his veiwers.
Richard Roberts marched out to one of the biggest microphones in the U.S. and rolled out a carefully crafted PR message designed to keep his followers trusting and giving for as long as possible. However, the way he addressed the campaign issue was a deliberate blurring of the distinction between the out of state campaigning that is legal and the in state campaigning which he knew was illegal. Here is a quote from the transcript:
King:The candidate, they claim — the litigants claim that you asked them to support a political candidate running for mayor of Tulsa. The candidate lost. He said he was ordered — the people were ordered to take responsibility when the IRS investigated complaints, because as a university, you can’t support political candidates.
How do you respond?
R. ROBERTS: Larry, I didn’t ask or coerce anybody to do that. That’s not true.
KING: Just plain out not true?
R. ROBERTS: It’s not true. I didn’t do that. Oral Roberts University has had a longstanding policy with our government students to be involved in campaigns. And students have campaigned for Republicans, for Democrats — I don’t know about Independents. But it’s sort of a lab experience the government students have. And they do that in most universities. Most government students on university campuses are a part of some type of political campaign to gain experience.
KING: And they can do that…
R. ROBERTS: Yes, they can do that.
KING: That’s not in violation of…
R. ROBERTS: That’s legal. But it is correct, we don’t ever endorse a candidate as a university. However, as an individual, we have a right. But not as an university or an…
KING: Did you ask these professors to do anything?
R. ROBERTS: Absolutely not.
KING: Nothing?
R. ROBERTS: And we’ve had a longstanding policy of supporting candidates all across the country and helping them with their races.
—–End of excerpt—
Most viewers across the country are unaware the distinctions of the campaign laws. Roberts knows very well that the accusation is about instate campaigns, but he asserts the half truth of the universities well known out of state campaign work as if the accusers are going after something that ORU has done for a long time with the blessing of the law. Seems Larry King was not aware of the distinction or he would have surely follwed up harder.
Explanations regarding other charges strain credulity. Eleven remodels of the home at University expense because of the black mold plague sweeping through Tulsas most prestegious homes? Hail damage? Eleven times? With luck like that, makes you wonder if they are living right.
And the following heart tug given to explain twiglight tsext messages to undrage boys must make little old ladies get misty, however I found it hard to swallow.
Roberts: Larry, if I might add, Lindsay and I, for years, have had a special ministry to troubled kids — to kids who had been on alcohol and drugs. It’s not something that we publicize, because we don’t want to draw attention to those kids. But for years we have reached out to kids who’ve suffered with drug and alcohol problems. We’ve helped them when they’ve been in and out of jail. We’ve helped them when they’ve come to our home drunk. And we’ve brought them and had them spent the night in our home and then gotten our bibles out and counseled them the next morning when they were sober and tried to help them. We’ve text messaged them. We’ve taken their phone calls at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning. That’s not something that we talk about, Larry. But we’ve had a ministry to these kids for years.
—-end of excerpt———
right…sooo we have unidentifiable drunken teens spending the night at the the Roberts luxury detox and receiving personal ministry from the first family.
Full transcript below
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0710/09/lkl.01.html
October 10th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Tyson,
I’m sorry, but I can’t help but chime in one more time.
I also oppose the prosperity Gospel. Do you know where they preach prosoperity? The United States.
Do you know where these same preachers don’t preach prosperity? Every other country in the world.
Try doing a crusade in Bulgaria and telling them all that God wants them to be rich! They don’t, they can’t. But they continue to do so here in the states. It’s disheartening. Not even because of its emphasis on money, but because of the sad, no tragic, way it distracts us from the true Gospel.
Yes, The Divine God of the Universe wants to actively have a relationship with you, wants to participate in your life….but more importantly, He wants you to be rich. And the way He wants you to get rich is by giving to MY ministry.
Walk into any prosperity church in the country, it has two groups: the wealthy, who show up every week to be reassured that they must be in God’s will, otherwise they would not be so blessed; and the poor, who keep chasing the dream that God wants them to be wealthy.
It breaks my heart.
Oral Roberts University is the only university in the country that preaches “seed faith,” but it is nearly 80 million, yes 80 MILLION dollars in debt. Explain to me how seed faith works again??
The only reason Oral Roberts Univesity is still in existence, is in spite of the Roberts family, not because of it. A short stroll near Christ Chapel should be enough for anyone with any actual understanding, to comprehend why the university is still with us: there is a long, long pathway paved with bricks inscribed with people’s names. These are the names of the faithful, the names of Granny Stewart who thought she was doing the right thing, and thousands like her that gave money to something they thought would honor God. God honors their faith, He honors them. That is why the school is still here. Not because of the Roberts, and certainly not because of Prosperity Gospel, but beceause of God’s grace and His great faithfulness to his flock.
October 10th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Mac,
You’d think that would be the case in regards to exporting this heresy, but it’s not.
These Word of Faithers travel the globe selling their false bill of goods, collecting money from people much poorer than Americans.
I have linked to this video on my site before, but it’s more appropriate now more than ever.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ukcV-xtU3hc
October 11th, 2007 at 9:14 am
I’ve supported ORU with prayers and a very little money for 30 years. There’s not enough room for me to share what ORU did for me when I didn’t have funds for books or tapes - I have many which I received at no cost and sometimes, as during the time my son was murdered - they have been of great comfort to me. There are so many accusations here that I’m overwhelmed. Let me just say that I have not been ’slain’ in the spirit, nor do I speak in tongues, but I’ve always felt - and I’ve never heard any different - that I too am a child of God. I enjoyed Oral roberts preaching for many years and now I occasionally watch Richard and Lindsay’s program. i say “Bless ORU and may it continue….
October 11th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
I’ll respond as briefly and respectfully as possible.
Not every one who says they serve Christ is my brother. If they don’t preach Christ crucified and risen or oneness or speak many untruths about the gospel I do not claim them as my brother. But I have over 20 years of theological education and experience from different denominations to base my judgment on. I also do a lot of research before I state my opinion and try see if comments where stated on an isolated instance or common place.
As for Richard or Oral Roberts saying that you have to speak in tongues to be saved I haven’t read or seen anything to support that statement. If you have any direct first hand documentation I would gladly look at it.
Jesus commands us to love everyone because everyone is our neighbor if if we do not like them. It is the second commandment. It does not mean hold them and pretending nothing is wrong. As I stated before 1st Cor 13 tells us what love is and we have to apply that to all people even if we don’t like them. That includes not being easily provoked, patient, and kind. I show the love that Jesus commands of me by praying for the Roberts and not cursing them.
In the end God is the ultimate judge. He holds vengence and mercy in his hands and will repay.
I will resign from commenting in the rest of this conversation so I do not derail your comments. It has been fun talking with a different branch of the vine of Christ. God bless.
October 11th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
The entire things reeks of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. Sadly, all of these TV preachers are just like this. Contributions have been down significantly in the past several years and scholarships have been scarce. However, Richard and Lindsey have NEVER CUT BACK ON THEIR LIFESTYLE. And why should they when the Board of Regents were all hand picked by Daddy Roberts. The entire Board needs to go too.
October 11th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Darklogos,
Here we go again:
I realize that you believe you are making a better response to this situation than I am. I disagree.
I am convinced that the Word of Faith doctrine espoused by the Robertes and many on the Board of Regents is patently false, unbiblical, and cultic. I was of that opinion before I ever posted on the lawsuit, and I only mentioned the lawsuit because it underscores in a very practical way the results of that kind of theology. I get that you don’t agree with me. You are free to make your own decisions.
However, you are not going to use my website and bandwidth to condemn my responses. I don’t care how polite you are tying to be, you are continuing to accuse me of not being loving because I have made bold, definitive statements regarding the situation IF THE ALLEGATIONS PROVE TO BE TRUE.
I love my neighbors. I pray that every one who believes in the false Word of Faith theology (including those who teach it) would correctly interpret the Scriptures. I pray that Christ would be real in their lives so that they might see that they have believed lies. My comments have nothing to do with liking someone. They have everything to do with revering God’s Word enough to say that it is complete and sufficient–without anything being subtracted OR ADDED.
You incorrectly state that the Second Commandment is to love your neighbor. The Second Commandment is that we should not make any graven images, that is we should not worship idols. It’s appropriate that you quote this Commandment because idol worship is exactly what those who have adulterated what Scripture really teaches about the nature of Christ are guilty of.
I have no disagreement about God being the ultimate judge. He certainly is, but He also didn’t just leave us down here with our own insights to guide us. He is very clear about what His standards are. Lying and stealing are two of the Big Ten. If the allegations made against the Robertses are proved true, then they are guilty. That’s not my judgment, it’s God’s. Additionally, we should note, that if the allegations are indeed true, both Richard and Lindsay Roberts are further guilty of going on national television and proclaiming their innocence and lying about their accusers.
I don’t intend to execute any vengeance, and I have not been personally harmed. However, I will continue to contend for a proper reading of Scripture. My hope is that all these teachers of false doctrine will have an encounter with Jesus Christ wherein He leads them to the truth. But that cannot happen unless or until they admit they are wrong.
It is obvious that you and I differ. I have continually stated that though I am not personally charismatic, I make no judgments on charismatics, per se. However, I have also stated that there is a difference in being charismatic and cultic, which Word of Faith doctrine is.
It’s not lost on me that you think your years of age and study have somehow given you a greater understanding of the situation at hand. I just don’t agree, even though my years of experience and scholarship are not what you claim yours to be. Be that as it is.
And for the record, I have never cursed the Robertses. I loathe what they do, but I do not wish evil on them. I pray God’s will for them as I do for all of us.
And lastly, I did not attribute the comment regarding tongues as evidence of salvation specifically to Oral or Richard Roberts. It is a general teaching within the Word of Faith movement. I don’t have any interest in cataloging every statement out of the Robertses’ mouths. However, you know as well as I do that it is an overall teaching of the Word of Faithers.
For your further edification, I encourage you to read Christianity in Crisis and Counterfeit Revival by Hank Hanegraaff. They both have more endnotes of the actual words out of the mouths of the Word of Faithers than you can shake a stick at. It’s all the documentation you could ever want that the Word of Faith theology is cultic–out of their own mouths.
October 11th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Comment,
Let’s be careful to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are plenty of hucksters and shysters out there, but there are also some very decent men of God who have used the broadcast media to further the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Adrian Rogers, D. James Kennedy, John MacArthur, J. Vernon McGee, John Piper, Chuck Swindoll, etc., are just a few.
The key is being accountable with the money you raise. It should be spend for (and only for) the purposes you state it will be when you raise it. It should never directly benefit the figurehead (he or she is entitled to fair wages and benefits for his or her labor). I have no problem, and the Bible has no condemnation, for those who raise millions of dollars in Christ’s name IF AND WHEN THOSE DOLLARS ARE SPENT ACCORDINGLY. Thankfully, many have done so.
Here we have one more result of the few bad apples: they bring condemnation and criticism on all Christian broadcasters. I think one of my main points has just been proved.
October 12th, 2007 at 2:09 am
Point of claification. The second commandment I was refering to was Jesus second commandment. The first command is to love God with all your heart, soul, and strength. I thought that was clear. I guess it was not. When I was A.M.E. we called the 2 commandments of Christ the summary of the Law. I forget some christians do not call the two requirements of Christ “commandments” sorry for misunderstanding. (matthew 22:36-39,Mark 12:29-31,Luke 10:26-28 for textual reference)
I have no need or desire to “one up you” or “make you look foolish” I was trying to disagree as respectfully as possible with some points.
I am a reference hound so to speak and like to find original sources and varying opinions on things. If I find a bit of information that interests me I try to track down the original statement as best as I can.
If I offended you I had no intent on doing so. I’m just trying to back out of this as respectfully as possible with out either of us saying anything unchrist like.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:18 am
As He is God, the Ten Commandments are Christ’s as well. His other requirements certainly are commandments, though not what people usually understand you to mean when you speak of Commandments 1-10. His additional commands certainly are a summary of His Law.
I understand your desire for references. That’s why I pointed you to the two books I mentioned. I think you will find them very informative, and they are chock-full of first-hand references.
I was offended by your continuing efforts to attribute things I was not saying to me so that you could then counter them. I think you were doing that, and I accept your apology.
October 14th, 2007 at 11:13 am
This ORU stuff is nothing new, read: “Give Me That Prime Time Religion”,(c)1979 by Gerald Sholes. It has been this way from the very beginning!
October 15th, 2007 at 8:10 am
Lindsey’s ring fingure??? On Larry King Live…HUMMMMMMMM
October 22nd, 2007 at 12:57 am
I attended ORU 1979-1982. I am grateful to God for Oral Robert’s obedience to God in building this University. I received a good education, was head of a CSC ministry that visited children on the Pediatric floor at Hillcrest Hospital, met wonderful friends from all over the United States, and met my husband who was a member of the O.W. Coburn School of law at ORU. Interestingly, Lindsey came to ORU as a first year law student, and thus was my husband’s classmate. However, she did not graduate, but instead became Mrs. Richard Roberts. Three of my sisters also attending ORU, as did two of their husbands. There are many things I loved about ORU such as: it’s emphasis on excellence, the whole man concept (body, soul and spirit), the Aerobic Center modeled after Kenneth Cooper’s famous Dallas Aerobic Center; daily noon communion services; Sunday night Vespers; CSC (Christian Service Counsel) Ministries as an alternative to Sororities and Fraternities; encouragement to make Jesus lord over every aspect of our lives; the importance of personal Bible study; the philosophy that all of us are ministers for Lord no matter what our chosen vocation.
My time at ORU was during the height of the “Prosperity Movement” (or whatever we label it). One of my best friends, who graduated with a 4.0, attended the Mayo Medical School and is now an eye surgeon and I were partners in ministry at Hillcrest Hospital. We encountered suffering children, many of whom were abused, neglected or terminally ill. How could we reconcile our experience with these precious suffering children with the “name it, claim it” philosophy? We had to search our hearts, scripture and God for an understanding of what exactly we had been promised as Christians. We became quite the crusaders against what we decided was a misunderstanding of scripture at best. I argued with those who insisted that “King’s Kids” were to live like Princes, that it was God’s will that we all be in perfect health at all times and that it was never God’s will that we suffer. I did not, and do not believe these ideas to be scriptural. I will not take time to cite my scriptural rebuttals.
In my opinion, The Word of Faith Movement and the Charismatic Movement mean different things to different people, despite what may be an official declaration of doctrine (if there is such a thing). I believe the WOF teachings have encouraged many to seek scripture, and pray the promises of God. The wonderful ministry of Mom’s in Touch was founded on the effective method of “bathing” our children in scriptural prayer. The Charismatic Movement ushered in a new freedom in worship including raising one’s hands in worship, now observed in so many churches that are not “Pentecostal”. I must include as a side note however, that I have never been taught that anyone must speak in tongues or be slain in the spirit to be saved. I have never known this to be a part of the Word of Faith doctrine despite its other flaws.
I have witnessed the disillusionment of people who misunderstand faith, believing it to be a type of miraculous force able to heal and produce wealth. When they did not get healed, when their marriage failed, when their babies died, when they tried to conjure enough faith to fix whatever ailed them and it didn’t work, their only two options were to believe that either they failed, or that God failed. It would require much writing to enumerate all the tragic consequences of this false teaching.
God is the essence and object of our faith. This misunderstanding of “entitlement” has no doubt caused, or at least greatly contributed to this current situation at ORU. Further, great faith produces great obedience, not necessarily great wealth or health. Do I believe that God can and sometimes does supernaturally heal Christians today? Do I believe that God can and sometimes does supernaturally provide material provision? Yes, but I believe his ways are not our ways, and that he is much more concerned with our holiness than our “happiness”. We are called to be his workmanship, to be living sacrifices, to be servants, to not be conformed to this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. We were warned that we would have tribulation. The promise is that when we abide in him, we will find a secret place of the most high where we will find shelter and peace despite the circumstances. The good news is that we can all have forgiveness of sin because of the shed blood of God the Son, Jesus Christ. We are promised that we are then filled with his spirit, which will also raise us from the dead to live eternally in the presence of God. God has promised us many other wonderful things in his Holy Word, but to reduce the amazing spiritual, eternal atonement to be some kind of formula for health and wealth is an abomination!
I have had to continually ask the Lord to help me have the right heart in regard to this, and other such scandals. I confess that I do realize a sort of satisfaction with the confirmation of what I have been preaching for over twenty years: God will not be mocked; we reap what we sow (this being especially ironic considering the whole “seed faith” doctrine). Additionally, we can not mix the things of the world with the things of God as it always leads to destruction. And yet, I must be so very humble in my own strength and righteousness as it is as filthy rags. But, as it has been said “I do not condemn anyone; they are condemned already by their own sin.” We must guard our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus, hate the things he hates, love the things he loves, and live our lives to honor our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
I believe we must all live like we believe that everything done in darkness will come to light. When I study God’s word, I do not see a rich, fat church, but a church that is rich with all spiritual blessings. We are between the cross and the crown, and we are to be his hand extended to a world that so desperately needs a Savior; our work should be about the eternal things. Does anything good come from Oral Roberts University? Yes, it does, and by God’s grace will continue to do so.
October 22nd, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Roxanne,
Let me thank you for one of the most well-thought-out and well-written responses I have received to this matter. I appreciate your visiting the WynnBlog and taking the time to comment.
October 23rd, 2007 at 3:33 pm
As an ORU alum, I wanted to reiterate what other alumni have said: accountability is essential. Hopefully this mess will bring it about.
When it comes to the lawsuit, I suspect the truth lies in the middle. As a student, I had classes with two of the three professors. If this interaction was any indication, I believe all the former professors desire to see the university succeed in the future. That said, if indeed the termination was wrongful (as I strongly suspect), it needs to be remedied.
On another note, Tyson please explain the following statement:
“…Word of Faith, however, has proven itself to be heretical and cultic in that it denies, corrupts, compromises, and/or condemns elements of essential Christian doctrine.”
October 23rd, 2007 at 8:35 pm
David,
Thanks for your comment.
Let me politely decline to respond to your request for me to explain the statement of mine that you quoted. Here’s why:
I have provided the references to two excellent resources by Hank Hanegraaff that explain my statement better than I ever could. Frankly, there’s not enough space here to do it, and I don’t currently have the time to re-do what Hanegraaff already has.
If and when you read these resources–which are replete with documentation of how the Word of Faithers deny essential Christian doctrine–you will see exactly what I mean.
I don’t intend to have a further debate here about Word of Faith.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Oh well. Thank you for even taking the time you did.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Re: “I must include as a side note however, that I have never been taught that anyone must speak in tongues or be slain in the spirit to be saved.”
Good heavens Roxanne, you didn’t realize that was a core doctrine of WOF? I’m shocked. In all seriousness, I’ve never heard of of that before - and I grew up in close proximity to the WOF movement. Moreover, I’d be very skeptical of the research methods (and perhaps motives) of an individual who suggested that being “slain” or “speaking in tongues” are salvation essential to WOFers.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Sorry for my grammar, it was a poor representation of the education one gets at ORU.